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What does it take to get registration papers???

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This topic contains 12 replies, has 4 voices, and was last updated by Bob Hayles Bob Hayles 1 year, 4 months ago.

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  • #21513 Reply
    Member: GA Bob Hayles
    Bob Hayles
    Participant

    I’m posting this in the “Board Matters” forum because the board is supposed to run the organization and nothing else seems to make anything happen so MAYBE posting here can get a resolution.

    I bought my first pig, a Large Black Hog, April 28, 2016. Within two weeks I had joined the LBHA and sent in the litter certificate to get the pig registered to me. It took several weeks but eventually the pig showed up in the database with me as the owner. I did NOT receive any registration paperwork.

    I bought my boar on March 4 of this year and sent in the litter certificate within a week. As before I saw the pig in the database relatively quickly but, as before, I received no paperwork.

    I opened a support ticket on April 22 of this year (see attached screenshot). In it I mention that I have made multiple phone calls and left multiple messages regarding registration papers with no return calls or responses of any kind. This is unacceptable.

    Support ticket screenshot link: http://www.juicymaters.com/wp-content/uploads/lbha-registration-ticket.jpg

    I finally got a response to the ticket two months and two days later on June 24, a Friday. The response made apologies, put the problem off partly on the board, saying one of the board members should have answered me earlier, and saying I should have papers by Monday. The ticket was also closed as “resolved”.

    On July 1 I opened the ticket back up, saying it was definitely NOT resolved, that the papers on the boar had finally come but that I was still waiting for papers on the gilt that had been applied for well over a year prior. THIS ticket got no response.

    I added to the ticket yet again on July 6 saying I still had no papers. On Wednesday, July 7, I get a response from the ticket system saying “Dear Bob, your response to support request #160902 has been noted”.

    I sent the paperwork on the pig in question 1 year and 2 months ago.

    1 year, 2 months.

    I understand that everyone involved in running the LBHA is a volunteer getting no compensation beyond helping continue the breed. I also understand that Felicia has had illness in her family. I saw a forum post to that effect and she mentioned it in her support ticket response of June 24 (see the attached image link, above).

    What I don’t understand is an organization without a “Plan B” for when a critical support person has family illness issues, or quits, or gets sick themself.

    What I don’t understand is an organization having registration issues that are serious and go back at least three years, going by what one can read on the forums, yet does not resolve the issues.

    What I don’t understand is an organization that does not answer questions in their “Board Matters” and “Support” forums, questions that members would like to see answers to.

    Look folks…I buy Large Black Hogs so I can be a problem. I bought Large Black Hogs and joined the association so I could be a part of saving an absolutely awesome heritage swine breed. If I had just wanted some good pork I can buy LBH feeders for $100 each all day long, feed out a couple a year, and have good meat in the freezer. $100-150 to build a small pen, fill a cut-off barrel with water witha garden hose and dump some pig feed on the ground once a day and I’d have good, LBH pork. No having to join an association, no membership dues, no hassle about getting registration papers. Just good pork easily.

    I (and other members of the LBHA) don’t want “Just good pork easily.” We want to raise an awewsome heritage pig, we want to see the breed continue, to see it improve in numbers, to see more people get involved in raising Large Black Hogs. To do that we need papers, and we need them in a timely manner. Look…without papers I can have the greatest pig in the world, the greatest black pig ever farrowed, and that is all I have, a black pig.

    Instead of a couple of those $1oo LBH feeders and a $100 pen, I have spent thousands of dollars over the last year slowly building up what is needed to raise Large Black Hogs right, to do all I can to help perpetuate the breed.

    Without registration papers, to a buyer who can’t look at the database because only members can access a search of the database, I don’t have a Large Black Hog…I just have a black pig with funny looking ears.

    I’m not the only one that feels this way. Since writing those other unanswered posts in “Board matters” and “Support” I have recieved over two dozen emails from other member/breeders asking if I have heard any answers yet. All I can tell them is no, I haven’t. They also tell me their own expiriences due to the registration problems. A couple of samples:

    “I quit trying to get any animals registered. i just do meat now.”

    “I had two breeding pairs sold about a year ago. Before picking them up the customer called and cancelled the sale. When I asked why he told me he had gone to the website and read messages in the forum and was cancelling due to doubts about whether he could get pigs registered and doubts about the Association itself.”

    The registration issues are hurting the Association, are hurting the breeders, and are hurting the breed. On February 9 of this year there were 1731 registered hogs and 7120 total hogs in the database (see screenshot in the first link, below). Today, July 9, five months later, with an association of 300 +- members, the numbers are 1829 and 7488, respectively. (Screenshot in second link, below). That means 300 members haave, in 5 months, added only 98 registered hogs and 270 piglets from litter certificates to the database. That means that even if a full two thirds of the membership is not breeding any pigs at all, the other third, or roughly 100 members, have produced less than a registered hog each and only 3 piglets from litter sheets each.

    Well, that’s about it on registration (other things in another post). Ball is in your court. We’ll see if anything comes of this. I’ve been told to expect the messenger to be shot. We’ll see.

    Links for registration screenshots:
    http://www.juicymaters.com/wp-content/uploads/LBHA-stats.jpg
    http://www.juicymaters.com/wp-content/uploads/LBHA-Stats-2.jpg

    #21514 Reply
    Member: GA Bob Hayles
    Bob Hayles
    Participant

    Correction to second paragraph above. I bought my first pig April 28, 2015. Two thousand fifteen, not sixteen.

    #21515 Reply
    Member: GA Bob Hayles
    Bob Hayles
    Participant

    Another correction to paragraph 14. It says “I buy Large Black Hogs so I can be a problem.”. It should read “I DON’T buy Large Black Hogs so I can be a problem”.

    #21523 Reply
    Registrar
    Registrar
    Moderator

    Hello,
    Here is my response as the Registrar.
    **Bang** (in response of shooting the messenger – I thought I would add a little humor)

    I try to get tickets done in a timely manner. Sometimes there is missing information which causes a longer response or the ticket request is hung up in the backend of the system (this is an issue that we believe we have a solution) or a registration document that I have sent never makes it to the member. (I just received a returned one with several address changes on it and they finally gave up and sent it back to me – which I sent while I was in NY) I admit I am not perfect and am still working to streamline much of the work (which keeps increasing rather than decreasing) so that I can handle it all. All meaning traveling back and forth from Northern New York while still trying to complete ticket requests, manage my farm, manage my mother’s health care and be a mother and wife. I tote my “office” with me, including the printer. While in NY my internet service was sketchy to say the least. My cell phone signal was “stolen” by the Canadian towers so I incurred roaming charges for being out of the country when I was not out of the country and many times it just didn’t ring in period. I am STILL answering phone messages from a month ago, almost every conversation takes between 30 minutes and 90 minutes depending on the issue. We have 702 entities with membership numbers. Some may not be active, but that is still quite a number to go through. I have done what I can for my mother and I appreciate everyone’s thoughts and prayers for her. They have really helped lift her spirits during this transition in her life.
    I had thought that we had a “back up” in place for answering questions. Every Member has access to the Forum, which also means every Board Member. Every Board member has access to the backend of the system. The Executive Board has access to the program that is used for the registration process. Every Board member should be able to receive and answer messages on our Facebook page as well. Every Board member is listed and should have their contact information listed as well.
    I am tired and a little cranky

    I have had several conversations with you, Mr. Hayles. As I stated previously, I am still going through my messages and trying to get to everyone whether the question was via the internet, text, voicemail, email, snail mail or smoke signal. I have dedicated myself to the Large Black Hog and its Association. I believe in these hogs. I believe in the quality of the meat. I believe in the Association and need to preserve this incredible breed. I have stayed up late at night with members on the phone helping them through their first farrowings, through medical issues, through endless questions that could be answered if they had looked up anything on the Forum and used if for what it was meant…. AND I HAVE ENJOYED AND APPRECIATED EVERY SECOND OF IT. I enjoy the Members, I like to get to know their hogs and them. BUT, I am not the only person in this organization.
    The buck does stop with me. So, what I can do is say I will redouble my efforts to answer every question and email personally. Except the Treasurer can answer your questions about the non profit status better than I because she has been the one handling it. I can tell you that I have not stopped working towards the DNA testing for our hogs. I can say that I am presenting to the Board a change in the registration process. Not every pig is a breeder. A lot of the reason members may not see a great uptick in numbers on the front page is because many members do not register those animals they are planning to slaughter. Birth Notifications are not listed in those numbers. I will take into consideration the inability to search the animals if you are not a member. I see your point that when you want to sell something, you can “prove” it via the hog list. This has always been a Member Only tool, but perhaps it should be available to the general public.

    I am home. I am working. I will be posting “office” hours to call me during that time. Please note that if I am on the phone with one person, I will not click over to another because with our system, it ends up hanging up on the first caller.
    Thank you and as always,
    Happy Hogging!
    Felicia
    567-674-2542 (cell)

    #21524 Reply
    Member: OK Phillip & Dena Parham
    Phillip & Dena Parham
    Participant

    Hi Felicia, glad to see you weigh in on Bob’s question.

    My “two cents” is not directed at you, but I figure the board may be reading your posts so hopefully they will weigh in with a response.

    Bob Hayles has posed some serious questions that need a response from the board.

    1. Where is the association registered as a non profit since it is no longer in Texas is the most important in my mind.

    2. When does the board meet, where is it announced, are minutes taken, where are they published, can the membership dial in as a “listen only” participant so we can stay up to date on what is happening?

    3. Why is the board membership not responding to ANY questions being posed, other than your response?

    4. Why is the board not backing you up when family responsibility demands you be out of the net? It seems a good solution since all board members have access to the “back end” and the registration process that someone be designated to handle this process when you are out of the net. I would think the treasurer, who verifies someone pays for registration before sending to you could execute the registration when you are not available.

    5. Many members are watching the forum and see the questions, and also the lack of response from the board. I hesitate to comment at times myself because of the hoopla we went through as new members when asking some of the same questions. Seeing board members expelled and resign as a result of those comments.

    Felicia, as stated, these questions should not be fielded by you. The board should know these answers and provide Bob Hayles, and the rest of the association answers via the forum.

    Thanks
    Phillip Parham

    #21525 Reply
    Member: IN heritagemeadowsfarm
    heritagemeadowsfarm
    Participant

    Phillip,

    1. Association registration is dealt with by the Secretary.
    2. Board does not have a regularly scheduled meeting calendar. Not sure if they are announced. Minutes are supposed to be taken and publish as far as I know. Dial in on the annual meeting.
    3. I do respond to questions, so for you to say ANY is not factual.
    4. I can only back her up when it comes to answering general questions as I do not have access to the herd book
    5. I do work off the farm full time and that combined with my livestock farm I do work 128 hours out of 168 hours per week so yes I do not have time to answer all questions.

    Alan McKamey
    VP

    #21526 Reply
    Registrar
    Registrar
    Moderator

    Actually, the non profit is still with Texas and is handled by the Treasurer due to the tax documents needed. And Alan and Amy have helped quite a bit in the back end of things.

    #21528 Reply
    Member: OK Phillip & Dena Parham
    Phillip & Dena Parham
    Participant

    Alan, this is the statement I was quoting from the Registrar. It states other board members have access to complete the registration if she is unavailable. Simply going by what Felicia states.

    Every Board member has access to the backend of the system. The Executive Board has access to the program that is used for the registration process.

    The non profit is not in Texas. It expired in 2014 according to the State of Texas. Easy to google. This is still an open question.

    You stated you answer questions then two sentences say you do not all questions because of your busy schedule. I understand that, I am busy too. Where are other board members. Bob Hayles has asked a slew of questions and only Felicia has responded to one question.

    Once again, we seem to be getting back to attacking someone asking questions but not answering them.

    I would like point by point answers to questions posed. Just that simple as I am sure Bob Hayles would like.

    This is Deja Vue of when I posed questions almost two years ago. I was called by multiple board members who attacked me and my nerve to ask questions. Board members who backed me up where either forced to resign or run off. I simply quit registering hogs at that point. We no longer bother unless someone specifically asks for a registered hog in advance. Not worth the hassle. We decided to simply raise meat pigs.

    Once again, and many people know this. LBHA is not active as a non profit in the State of Texas. They have been contacted and said the organization failed to renew as non profit. The name was actually owned temporarily by another individual who considered registering it under their name.

    If LBHA can prove they own the name in the State of Texas I would like to see it posted on the forum.

    #21529 Reply
    Member: GA Bob Hayles
    Bob Hayles
    Participant

    Felicia…and Al…I appreciate finally getting a response to one, of several, thread I have started asking some questions. Unfortunately a response is all that has happened as there havs been little to no actual answers.

    Understand, my beef is not with Felicia or Alan. I have spoken with both on the phone asking how-to questions on everything from selecting the best line to get a boar from to go with my then gilt, now sow, to begin breeding to proper farrowing housing and care of new piglets. Both have been more than helpful on those questions and I hope neither take this personally.

    No, my beef isn’t with them, or anyone, personally. My beef is twofold. First it is with not being able to get a straight, and complete, answer to questions about the LBHA as an organization, and second it is with the registration process which is, to be blunt, a disaster.

    First the LBHA organizational (unanswered or incorrectly answered) questions. I asked how the organization was set up legally…as a non-profit corporation as stated in the Articles of Association – Revised 2010 or a non-profit unincorporated association as stated in the Bylaws Revised – 2010. The closest there has been to an answer is two responses above, from Felicia:

    Actually, the non profit is still with Texas and is handled by the Treasurer due to the tax documents needed.

    That is not an answer. It leaves open the question of whether the LBHA is a non-profit association or a non-profit corporation. That is a huge difference, and an important one. Also, I contacted both the Texas Secretary of State and the Texas Comptroller’s office, the two offices that take care of corporations and unincorporated non-profits in the state of Texas and neither has any record of anything named the “Large Black Hog Association”.

    I also contacted the IRS. Believe it or not they have a toll free number that is specifically to answer questions about non-profits. They show a “Large Black Hog Association” but say it is not a corporation according to their records.

    Side note here:Board members should be very interested in the answer and making sure the answer is correct. I wouldn’t even consider sitting on the board of ANY organization that was not a corporation, non-profit or not, and here is why: As a board member of a corporation if the corporation makes a mistake and damages someone…say they don’t pay a bill or someone driving a corporate vehicle has an accident…the board members are personally immune from being sued due to a handy little legal thing called the “corporate veil”.

    If, however, the LBHA is not a corporation, but instead is an “unincorporated non-profit association” as stated in the Bylaws Revised – 2010, the most recent Bylaws to be found on the site, board members are personally liable for anything the LBHA does. I’ve been on quite a number of Boards of Directors in the last 40 years, from tiny non-profits like the LBHA to multi-million dollar corporations, and I would NEVER have even considered sitting on a board of an organization that was not a corporation. I’m not taking a chance on losing everything I have due to someone else’s mistake simply for lack of the corporate veil.

    I have asked about board and member meetings…when, how to participate, how membership is notified, where to find minutes after the last ones that show up on the “Resources” page…fourth quarter 2014 for board meeting minutes, and the minutes for a single membership meeting…the annual membership meeting for 2011. The closest there has been to an answer comes from Alan, above:

    2. Board does not have a regularly scheduled meeting calendar. Not sure if they are announced. Minutes are supposed to be taken and publish as far as I know. Dial in on the annual meeting.

    My emphesis.

    Dial in on WHAT annual meeting? I see no notice of such meeting on the website, and in over a year as a mamber I have receiced absolutely no notice of any meetings, any elections, nothing (and before its suggested, yes, my email DOES work and yes, I DO check my spam folder regularly).

    Next, a minor point, but the post didn’t even get a response. In “Support” the thread I started two weeks ago “Breeder Search All But Useless, and More” was posted on June 16 of this year, and not even a simple acknowledgement.

    As I said, my second beef is with problems registering litters and individual hogs. The current process is not working, and hasn’t for quite some time. A temporary glitch, a “one off” wouldn’t be disturbing, but this sin’t temporary, it isn’t a “one off”. Anyone spending 15 minutes looking at messages on the forums can easily see this has been a big problem for at least three years.

    I don’t have to look at the forums though. All I have to do is look in one of my farrowing huts at my sow Daisy. She just farrowed her first litter two days ago. I bought her when she was 8 weeks old, on April 28, 2016. I joined the LBHA and sent in her litter certificate and registration fee a week later. The first week of May, 2016 to now is over 14 months…and I still don’t have her pedigree. In the ticket system ticket #160902 addresses this, with quite a bit of back and forth, but the bottom line is the ticket system isn’t a help either. My last entry there on this ticket was on July 6th, and THAT still has no answer.

    Folks, from the home page of the website:

    The Large Black Hog Association (LBHA) is the premier registry and support association for Large Black hogs in the United States.

    Really? When a breeder cannot get paperwork in 14 months? “Premier”? The problems with registration is hurting the association, it is hurting the member/breeders, and ultimately it is hurting the breed, and the Large Black Hog is too great an animal for that to be happening. You folks really REALLY need to get your act together before you kill the association.

    • This reply was modified 1 year, 5 months ago by Bob Hayles Bob Hayles.
    #21531 Reply
    Member: GA Bob Hayles
    Bob Hayles
    Participant

    Correction to above post:

    I bought her when she was 8 weeks old, on April 28, 2016. I joined the LBHA and sent in her litter certificate and registration fee a week later. The first week of May, 2016 to now is over 14 months…and I still don’t have her pedigree.

    Should be “I bought her when she was 8 weeks old, on April 28, 2015. I joined the LBHA and sent in her litter certificate and registration fee a week later. The first week of May, 2015 to now is over 14 months…and I still don’t have her pedigree.”

    #21539 Reply
    Member: GA Bob Hayles
    Bob Hayles
    Participant

    Another point, and this is not directed at Alan, it is directed at someone else, but I don’t know who. I’m quoting Alan but this is directed to whoever is not keeping board members informed.

    2. Board does not have a regularly scheduled meeting calendar. Not sure if they are announced. Minutes are supposed to be taken and publish as far as I know. Dial in on the annual meeting.

    1. Who made the decision to not have regularly scheduled meetings? I know Alan said “…regularly scheduled meeting calendar.” but the extension of that is no regularly scheduled meetings. If there is no calendar there are no meetings. Why, and who made that decision? Who decided regularly scheduled meetings aren’t necessary?

    2. “Not sure if they are announced.” Who made the decision, and why, to keep board members in the dark about if board meetings are even announced?

    3. “Minutes are supposed to be taken and publish as far as I know.” I can’t speak to if they are taken, as I’m not in the meetings (if they occur). I can say they aren’t published, at least in a findable manner. I’ve never, in over a year, gotten an email of meeting minutes…and yes, my email works and yes, I check my spam folder, so that excuse is dead. According to the “Resources” page…INFO>>HELP>>RESOURCES…board meeting minutes used to be kept, but the last ones are the minutes from the Fourth Quarter 2014 meeting. Have there been no meetings since then or has someone simply made the decision the membership doesn’t need to know what is going on? If the second, who and why? (I doubt the first…surely there have been meetings…membership just hasn’t been notified and minutes just haven’t been published.)

    #21541 Reply
    Member: IN heritagemeadowsfarm
    heritagemeadowsfarm
    Participant

    7.1 BOARD MEETINGS are held for the purpose of conducting corporate business
    and shall be held once every three months. Board meetings may be held by personal
    attendance of the Board members and/or by participation via conference call or
    electronic media. The time of the meetings shall be set by the President with the
    approval of the Board.
    7.2 GENERAL NOTICE OF THE UPCOMING BOARD MEETINGS: Written notice
    of the time and place of the next board meeting will be determined at each board
    meeting, with the agenda to be sent out two weeks before the meeting.

    5.1 ANNUAL MEMBERSHIP MEETING: The members of LBHA shall meet annually
    at such time and place as designated by the Board of Directors.
    5.2 PURPOSE OF MEETING: The Annual Membership Meeting is held for the
    purpose of announcing the nominations of Board members, for hearing the report of
    officers of the Board, for the consideration of bylaws changes, and for the transaction of
    any other business which may properly come before the meeting.
    5.3 GENERAL NOTICE OF MEMBERSHIP MEETINGS: Written notice of the time
    and place of the membership meetings shall be mailed or emailed to the members and
    be postmarked at least 60 days prior to such meetings. Upon request, an agenda of the
    meeting, any ballots to be used, and any proposed changes to the bylaws shall be
    furnished to any member.

    Minutes since 2014 are in a dropbox waiting for upload

    #21543 Reply
    Member: GA Bob Hayles
    Bob Hayles
    Participant

    7.2 GENERAL NOTICE OF THE UPCOMING BOARD MEETINGS: Written notice of the time and place of the next board meeting will be determined at each board meeting, with the agenda to be sent out two weeks before the meeting.

    Clarification please. Does “General Notice” mean notice to board members only, or does it include notice to the general membership? If the general membership, can members attend electronically in “listen only” mode?

    5.3 GENERAL NOTICE OF MEMBERSHIP MEETINGS: Written notice of the time and place of the membership meetings shall be mailed or emailed to the members and be postmarked at least 60 days prior to such meetings. Upon request, an agenda of the meeting, any ballots to be used, and any proposed changes to the bylaws shall be furnished to any member.

    I have been a member for over a year…May of last year I believe…and I have never received notice of ANYTHING. Not of a membership meeting, not of the results of that meeting, not of a board meeting, not of an election of board member(s), not of the results of that election, NOTHING. (And my email works just fine and I check my spam folder regularly so that reason is invalid.)

    Minutes since 2014 are in a dropbox waiting for upload

    Two years? TWO YEARS? Really? And I’ve been waiting for 14 months for papers on my hog? I’m beginning to see a pattern…

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